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Glossographia - Syntax: administrators and idiots
forthright
[info]forthright
Syntax: administrators and idiots
When we think about language change, it's often neologisms (newly coined words) that catch our attention. New slang and new terms for technology are perceptually highly salient - they catch our attention and arouse our ire. I've been guilty of this from time to time, as in my abortive Words I Hate series featuring such classics as winningest, biopic, and herbaceutical, and even recently I've complained about consumerology and brownulate. But they aren't the most significant aspects of linguistic change. At least 95% of the words in this entry (excepting the last sentence) have been in the language for hundreds of years, and, as a raw count (i.e. not eliminating duplicates) at least 50% of the words are Anglo-Saxon. And, as I pointed out earlier this year, the annual Banished Words List picks on neologisms mercilessly, when in fact these are largely hardly objectionable except in a subjective sense.

Similarly, although I find new ones virtually every week, my ongoing series of pronunciation polls reflects only a very limited set of words that exhibit variation in their pronunciation outside the normal dialect differences in vowel quality, r-pronouncing, etc. But because it's an issue of pronunciation, and because humans are cognitively attuned to hear various phonemic distinctions in their own languages, once again, they're very obvious.

Syntax, however, is a trickier issue. On the surface, syntactic change seems less significant than other types of linguistic change, because we can almost always sort out the meaning of a sentence even if the word order or phrasing seems a bit archaic. "He sleeps not" is now non-standard, but of course for centuries this formation was a completely standard way to express negation in English, and is in fact considerably more concise than "He does not sleep". Nevertheless, you have only to read closely a little bit of seventeenth or eighteenth (or even nineteenth)-century literature to notice syntactic differences. One of the real challenges I have in my Evolutionary Anthropology course, where we read Darwin's The Descent of Man, is to get the students to slow down and read closely, because if they don't then the language can just wash over them and they will miss important points.

Which brings me to the poll I ran a couple of weeks ago, asking for your input on the correctness of six sample sentences (three pairs that only differ in one point). Bear in mind that I hate syntax, and that it is one of the only reasons why I chose anthropology (with a somewhat linguistic focus) instead of linguistics as a major and eventually a profession. So the analysis that follows may in fact be error-ridden.

To recap, here are the six sentences:

(1) He showed that the administrators were idiots.
(2) He showed how the administrators were idiots.

(3) The administrators who he thought were clever were actually idiots.
(4) The administrators he thought were clever were actually idiots.

(5) He prevented the administrator from being an idiot.
(6) He prevented the administrator being an idiot.

That vs. How
Unsurprisingly (to me), over three-quarters of you agreed that 1 and 2, while both acceptable, mean different things. I agree - to me, 1 means that the subject demonstrated the fact of their idiocy, while 2 means that he showed the manner in which they were idiots. However, in informal speech 2 is actually reasonably common, and I have noticed it increasingly in student papers in sentences like, "He showed how Piltdown Man was actually a hoax committed by Sir Arthur Keith" in a context where the relative pronoun how can only reasonably be interpreted as meaning that he demonstrated the fact, not the means by which, the hoax was committed. In the poll, all of the other responses were chosen by only a few people, so I'm not able to say for sure whether this is a growing trend, but anecdotal evidence from student papers suggests that it is. I have to be careful, though, not to fall prey to the recency illusion. Even if it is very rare in published texts from the past, the same is true of published texts from the present - I have only encountered it in speech and in student papers, neither of which I have access to from the past.

Whom vs. Who vs. That vs. Nothing
Hee hee! I knew it would be a free-for-all in the comments when I wrote sentences 3 and 4, because I intentionally omitted the following:
(7) The administrators whom he thought were clever were actually idiots.
(8) The administrators that he thought were clever were actually idiots.
You will find that in speech and informal writing, 7 is vanishingly rare and getting rarer, while 3, 4, and 8 are all popular to some degree. In writing, 7 is more common but 3, 4, and 8 are also common. Any number of you will insist that 'that' should never be used as a relative pronoun to refer to humans, or that 'whom' or 'who' is absolutely required in this context. You're wrong. You're wrong not because 8 is correct, but because all of these are so common among the best English writers of the past 500 years that it's hard to see the standard by which 'wrong' would possibly be judged. You can't even apply the 'replace the relative clause with a pronoun' rule to decide between who/whom in this case. This isn't some loosey-goosey descriptivism, mind you: it reflects actual usage, true, but not just 'any old usage' - it's the usage of trained, educated, skilled writers who pay attention to their writing, and *still* there is variability. This is because, like it or not, the Big Book of English Grammar school of thought is dead, dead, dead, and really hasn't ever been alive. For the record, and setting aside the restrictive vs. non-restrictive clause issue in terms of comma placement, I use all of these, but probably 4 most of all. The absence of a relative pronoun here is unproblematic and standard. In fact, I wonder whether the reason I find it pleasing is that it avoids the whom/who/that issue entirely, and thus is inoffensive to all (well, except for the 13% of you who think that 4 is acceptable only informally, or the one person who holds that 4 is incorrect).

From-Deletion
One of Arthur's books contains the following sentence:
(9) The scarecrow tries to stop them eating Farmer Sparrow's seeds!
In formal contexts, I would say or write stop them from eating, but in informal conversational contexts, I may well delete the preposition. In our sample sentences 5 and 6, 'stop them' is analogous to 'prevented the administrator' and 'eating' is analogous to 'being'; I'm not sure whether it makes a difference, though. But clearly you found 5 far more acceptable than 6; over half of you found only 5 acceptable, and another sixth found 6 to be okay only in informal contexts; conversely, no one found only 6 acceptable. I'm having a hard time figuring out exactly what the trick is here. It may have something to do with the verb 'prevent', but I don't think so. It may have to do with assumptions about the deleted preposition, which could create a semantic difficulty (e.g. 'from being an idiot' vs. 'while (he was) being an idiot'. Or it may have something to do with the phrase 'being an idiot', but again, I don't think so. But then again, I am an idiot (relatively) when it comes to sorting out these problems, and someone will have to stop me (from) being obsessed with the question.

(For the record, though: I don't think that all administrators are idiots!)

Tags:

Comments
jinni_x From: [info]jinni_x Date: December 18th, 2007 05:02 am (UTC) (Link)
If you replaced 'prevent' with 'stop' in that last sentence, it would seem like you were talking about a security guard who catches an administrator being an idiot :) I don't know, the last sentence just sounds horribly wrong to me.
jinni_x From: [info]jinni_x Date: December 18th, 2007 05:03 am (UTC) (Link)
Er, last one meaning last one in the poll (#6)
forthright From: [info]forthright Date: December 18th, 2007 05:48 pm (UTC) (Link)
Hmm ... on the 'security guard' model, let's replace 'being an idiot' with the syntactically similar 'stealing the manuscript' and see what happens.

He prevented the administrator from stealing the manuscript.
He prevented the administrator stealing the manuscript.
He stopped the administrator from stealing the manuscript.
He stopped the administrator stealing the manuscript.

For me, all of these seem okay, and all are basically synonymous. How about you?
jinni_x From: [info]jinni_x Date: December 18th, 2007 05:54 pm (UTC) (Link)
#2 is still wrong. It must be 'prevent'. Just doesn't lend itself to casual use...Also, there are shades of difference to #3 and 4, in my mind, #3 sounds closer to prevent (nip in the bud, so to speak), and #4 is more that the admin got stopped after the deed was done and s/he (I don't want to hear it unless you have a better suggestion) was trying to get away...
I guess fiction writers are not the best poll subjects =)
forthright From: [info]forthright Date: December 18th, 2007 06:02 pm (UTC) (Link)
I do see what you're saying; the difficulty seems to be that 'the administrator stealing the manuscript' is easily interpreted as a noun phrase, as it would be in the following:
[The administrator who was stealing the manuscript] was a bad man.

Whereas syntactically, the object in the four sentences above is 'the administrator' not 'the administrator stealing the manuscript'.

He prevented [the administrator] (from) stealing the manuscript.

The sentences without the preposition make it seem as if there should be something after 'manuscript' (or 'idiot') explaining what exactly was prevented. Is that about right?
jinni_x From: [info]jinni_x Date: December 18th, 2007 06:07 pm (UTC) (Link)
Yes!
Now I have actual words rather than just queasiness caused by looking at that sentence =)
From: [info]krilltish Date: December 19th, 2007 12:55 am (UTC) (Link)
The first and penultimate are the only acceptable ones (though, in certain contexts the final is fine- but it means something slightly different). The penultimate seems to me to mean that the guard prevented the stealing, while the last means that they (the culprit) was caught in the act (or just afterward).
chickenfeet2003 From: [info]chickenfeet2003 Date: December 18th, 2007 11:57 am (UTC) (Link)
The biggest syntactic change in English that I have noticed in my lifetime is an inexorable decline in the simple future tense. One vanishingly rarely hears "I shall go shopping tomorrow". The more circuitous, but less grammatically fraught, "I am going to go shopping tomorrow" is vastly predominant.
forthright From: [info]forthright Date: December 18th, 2007 05:38 pm (UTC) (Link)
True, although it's still hanging in strong in phrasings using the contraction 'll, though. And of course in formal writing, 'will' and even 'shall' are going strong, although that's an artificial standard of linguistic usage.
foms From: [info]foms Date: December 18th, 2007 10:22 pm (UTC) (Link)
I think that I've mentioned this in comments here before. I am waiting for addtional iterations to crop up. I am going to go to go... Soon enough there will be an endless loop.[g]
lizw From: [info]lizw Date: December 18th, 2007 03:29 pm (UTC) (Link)
In formal contexts, I would say or write stop them from eating, but in informal conversational contexts, I may well delete the preposition

That's interesting. I do it the other way round, because "from" seems redundant and I was taught to think of redundancy as slightly vulgar. Mind you, it was probably my father who taught me - he was an English teacher until he retired, and since I went to school in Germany, a lot of my instruction in English style and grammar came from him - so that may just be his prejudice showing ;-)
forthright From: [info]forthright Date: December 18th, 2007 05:44 pm (UTC) (Link)
It's so fascinating to see the sorts of rules and guidelines we absorb, and from where. The distinction here is clearly not one of ungrammaticality, but aesthetics, and to my ear, redundancy in this case isn't an aesthetic problem at all, although I do often find problems in my students' papers that make me want to write to the Department of Redundancy Department.
From: [info]krilltish Date: December 19th, 2007 12:52 am (UTC) (Link)
I too find redundency to be annoying/horrible, but to me, in this sentence, there is no redundency. I can't figure out why though.
pr1ss From: [info]pr1ss Date: December 19th, 2007 12:57 pm (UTC) (Link)

Aaaaack!

I would call sentence (9) about Farmer Sparrow
NOT ENGLISH AT ALL.

To me, it scans as a story about a scarecrow who is eating some seeds, and he works on a hardscrabble farm where commas are an unaffordable luxury.
pr1ss From: [info]pr1ss Date: December 19th, 2007 01:10 pm (UTC) (Link)

Re: Aaaaack!

I find 'from' to be absolutely essential. Without it there is subject/object confusion. You guys who think that it can be left out are relying heavily on the meaning of the verb. 'Them' might be able to eat seeds, while a scarecrow doesn't need to eat, or an administrator might be an idiot, while a random person represented only by a pronoun might be less likely to be one.
forthright From: [info]forthright Date: December 19th, 2007 04:42 pm (UTC) (Link)

Re: Aaaaack!

I agree that it is awkward. Technically it is not ungrammatical according to most manuals (of course, we know that this is not necessarily reliable), but you are quite right that it isn't necessarily clear whether the 'eating some seeds' applies to the subject or object here, and if there were a comma involved then it would have to apply to the subject 'scarecrow'. So here are some more sentences for your perusal.

(10) I was watching him while eating some seeds.
(11) I was watching him while he was eating some seeds.
(12) I was watching him eating some seeds.
(13) I was watching him, eating some seeds.
(14) I was watching him eat some seeds.

10 and 13 are synonymous and grammatical; 11 and 14 are synonymous and grammatical, while 12 is the one causing all the problem. Is that about right?
pr1ss From: [info]pr1ss Date: December 22nd, 2007 04:15 pm (UTC) (Link)

Re: Aaaaack!

My perception is that in sentence (10) the subject both watches and eats a snack, while in all of the rest the object is the seed-eater. Commas are often overused or left out. Using a pair of them to set aside an element, much in the same way that parentheses are used, can help with comprehension. But I don`t feel that throwing in a single comma adds significant meaning.
As a reader, I rely heavily on word choice and word order which are often enough to convey sentence and phrase groupings even if I were to try reading the same page with all of the punctuation and capitalization stripped out.

From: [info]barbjd Date: February 28th, 2008 01:40 am (UTC) (Link)

administrators and idiots

#6: administrator's being. Gerund requires the possessive.
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